On October 8, Omar al Bashir was interviewed by Lindsey Hilsom, international editor for Channel 4 News in Khartoum. During this interview, al Bashir’s approach was to deny any wrongdoing altogether, claiming that the killings and mass rapes are all rebel lies. Al Bashir even went as far as to deny the existence of rape itself in Darfurian culture, claiming there is no DNA evidence that janjaweed or Sudanese government soldiers ever committed rape.
FULL TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH OMAR AL BASHIR, PRESIDENT OF SUDAN, WITH LINDSEY HILSUM, INTERNATIONAL EDITOR CHANNEL 4 NEWS, IN KHARTOUM, 8TH OCTOBER 2008:
Note: Only the edited version has been broadcast.
Lindsay Hilsum: You’ve been in power almost 20 years. What have you achieved?
Omar al Bashir: Since we came to power, we have had distinct goals – we have achieved peace in Sudan, especially South Sudan through the agreements we made. Our second goal was national consensus and reconciliation. Now this is fully in practice, all political parties and entities are practicing their programs with freedom and preparing themselves to participate in elections. The third goal was the salvation of our economy. When we came to power, we were in a very poor economic position; we were one of the five poorest countries in the world. Now we have a growing, viable economy that is recording high rates of growth.
LH: But hanging over you is that you may be indicted for genocide. You said in Ghana [at the ACP meeting} that if this happens, there will be no peace, while the further deployment of UN troops and aid will be held up. That sounds like blackmail
O al B: First that isn’t exactly what I said in Ghana. We agreed to negotiate with rebel groups who refused peace, but any measure like that taken by the ICC, encourages them not to attend peace talks. This was evident in their rejection and lack of interest in making peace as long as we are facing these charges.
LH: It’s not just a question of peace but of justice. These allegations of genocide, war crimes against humanity, war crimes – the prosecutor quotes recorded and written and words of yours calling for forces to take no prisoners, and for a scorched earth campaign..
O al B: These allegations are not correct. Everything is fabricated and made up. Anything saying that we ordered killing people is untrue. The sources used by the ICC prosecutor are all hostile; they are from the rebels who revolted against the state.
LH: You say the sources are rebel groups, but the atrocities are well documented. I’ve been there, I’ve seen the burnt villages, the women who have been raped, the thousands living in terror in the camps.
O al B: It’s true that many people are living in camps. After the rebels were defeated in the field, many entered the displaced people’s camps. They are managing the camps, and they direct the people who meet visitors and dictate what they should say. It’s very normal for people to be displaced from areas of operations and to flee. The question is where did these people move to? They moved into places where there are Sudanese armed forces, police and security because they were sure that they would find safety there. Is it rational for people to flee and look for security in the very place where they find the same forces that were carrying out mass murder and rape? When these people went to Nyala, El Fasher and Geneina, there were no humanitarian organizations or African Union or UN, rather there were Sudan Armed forces and police.
LH: There wasn’t much protection for people in Kalma attacked by Sudanese forces in August. There’s not much protection for women who run gauntlet of janjaweed whenever they go to look for firewood…
O al B: When it comes to mass rape, there is no document or evidence, just accusations. Anything which claims these things are documented is untrue. But if we are talking about Kalma, in Kalma there were arms inside the camp. The crime of murder was committed inside the camp. We agreed that the operation would be made in collaboration between government forces and UNAMID, but at the last moment the UNAMID mentioned that they had received orders not to be involved. They knew when the forces moved because the information had leaked. A number of citizens confronted the forces. Behind them, there were armed men and the shooting started from inside the camp. Some soliders when shot at, automatically retaliated and casualties occurred. But after this incident, a shot was fired at a UN plane from within the camp, and it was brought down. This is a displaced people’s camp, not a rebel camp, and arms are not allowed inside. Arms should be removed from the camps.
LH: So you shot at people in the camp because you believed there were rebels behind them…?
O al B: That’s not what I said. The casualties were in the crossfire.
LH: I’m interested that you deny that there’s been mass rape. Because this is something that not just the rebels are saying. What we see is the UN, the Ministry of Health people, we see women turning up with evidence of rape at healthcare facilities. We see children with this. And they all tell the same story, that it’s usually janjaweed, sometimes government of Sudan troops. Are you really denying this, are you really saying that women of Sudan are lying?
O al B: The women inside the camps are under the influence of the rebels and some are even relatives of the rebels. That’s why they make these claims. Now there are scientific methods that can reveal who are the fathers of these children which are born. We are fully convinced that no rape took place. It might have happened at an individual level, but this is a normal crime that can happen in any country in the world. Mass rape does not exist.
LH: So you’re going to take DNA of the janjaweed…?
O al B: You can bring any accused, and take his DNA.
LH: They don’t know who did it, individual, Just know the janjaweed
O al B: These are all false allegations. It’s not in the culture of the Darfurians. The Darfurian society does not have rape. It’s not in the tradition.
LH: Do you have no pity?
O al B: No-one has more compassion for their people than we do in Sudan. We have been fighting rebels and in any country where people raise arms against the government, they are to be fought. In fact, people who fight now are classified as terrorists even those who are resisting foreign occupation like in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and so on. If we had no mercy, those displaced people wouldn’t have come to the government areas. They wouldn’t have been received and cared for until the humanitarian organisations arrived. [long passage about how Sudan helped refugees from Ethiopia during the war there]
LH: Do you take responsibilty for action of the armed forces of Sudan including the janjaweed?
O al B: Any armed forces are governed by law. This law defines exactly who is responsible for any operation carried out. If a commander exceeds his limits of responsibility, the law is there to hold him accountable. Of course, these responsiblities are shared. We are not leading or commanding forces in the field. We give general instructions or orders, which the forces carry out.
LH: Two significant people in conflict, your former Minister of Interior Ahmad Haroun and a janjaweed commander Ali Khusyab, have been indicted. You said you won’t hand them over to the ICC? Why not? Let them defend themselves.
O al B: We have a competent and qualified judicial system. It has a history and has set judicial precedents that have tried commanders of police and security. We are not members of the Rome Protocol, but we assure you that there’s no one above the law. If there is anyone who has accusations against Ahmad Haroun and Ali Khusayb the prosecution is there, the judiciary is there, and there is no impunity for anyone who commits a crime.
LH: It’s a bit embarrassing, isn’t it, to have a head of state who faces indictment, possible indictment? It means you might not be able to travel to various countries… Are you really going to stand for election next year, do you think you can stay? Or do you think it would be for the good of the country, better to step down now?
O al B: First of all, we are facing a challenge and the referee is the Sudanese people. They should decide if we are really criminals, or if we are leaders of the people who should govern them in the future. I issue a challenge: if I get less than 50% of the people’s votes in Darfur then truly I don’t deserve to lead the country.
LH: They’re now saying this ship carrying tanks and other weapons hijacked by pirates off coast of Somalia was carrying weapons for the GOSS, previously your enemies now part of your government. What’s your reaction?
O al B: There were conflicting reports. Acually I met the Kenyan Foreign Minister in Accra and he assured me that this shipment of arms was for Kenya. Of course, the media says otherwise. Now we are talking to our brother in Southern Sudan to see the truth about it.
LH: There’s worry about the war in the south re-starting. Darfur, Kordofan, Blue Nile, Nuba Mountains… There are a lot of unhappy, restless people in Sudan. This country is boiling. How are you going to deal with that? How do you see it in five years time?
O al B: I’m very keen to show that this thing of the country boiling is untrue. We have no problems in Blue Nile, or Nuba Mountains. Everything is fine. The implementation of the peace agreement with the south is fine. Now even in Darfur, you can say most of it is safe. There are no problems and life is very normal. In the media it’s boiling, but in the field it’s not.
The opinions expressed here are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the position of the Save Darfur Coalition.
